relmneiko ([info]relmneiko) wrote,
@ 2009-07-01 16:59:00
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Entry tags:over-analysis, rambling, xenosaga

The perennial complaint:
Bawww I want more Xenosaga. If they can't make another game, I'll be satisfied (marginally) with a spinoff manga or something. Come on you guys. I NEED THIS.

So anyway.



Hermmmm so. Let's start off with what I'm sure of: Wilhelm is the Ubermensch. You know, the figure not bound by traditional morality (BEYOND GOOD AND EVIL HYUK HYUK) who determines the values of the masses. He's determinedly NOT spiritual - as president of Vector industries, he's in a position of material wealth, placed in contrast with the what-religion-are-they-practicing U-TIC organization. He's also placed in direct contrast with chaos (the Gnostic power behind Jesus) and KOS-MOS (Mary Magdalene), figures relating to Christianity and spirituality.

He's even trying to bring about the eternal return, the LITERAL eternal return, the universe looping in on itself as a way to continue its existence. The subtitle of the third game - "Thus Spake Zarathustra" - besides being completely pretentious, is a reference to Wilhelm's final desire to, like Zarathustra did, bring about eternal return.

...so is Xenosaga trying to debunk the Ubermensch, or what? Because, you know, after three games of getting manipulated and blown around by Wilhelm, Shion and co. (or rather KOS-MOS) basically bring all of his plans to naught.

I mean, in the end KOS-MOS rebelled against her master (Kevin, Wilhelm, Shion, whoever) and decided to act for what she believed to be Shion's welfare.

So let's talk about Nietzsche and women. Some think him to be a raging misogynist while others think exactly the opposite - hey, this is Nietzche, you can find a quote of his to say something and another quote later on that seemingly contradicts it. Taken at literal face, he describes women as basically the sirens that call men away from fulfilling their true potential as Ubermenschen - and that's exactly what KOS-MOS does, she fucks shit up for Wilhelm.

And if we want the epitome of man-who-would-be-Ubermensch-but-fails, it's Kevin. He's up there with Wilhelm pulling the strings for pretty much the entire game, but he basically just keeps fucking up because of his obsession with Shion. Making a special looping universe just for the two of them? Mmm-hmm. Kevin's the one most involved with the major women of the series - Shion, KOS-MOS, T-elos - and in the end his involvement with them leads to failure.

But then you can take >9000 other interpretations of what Nietzsche said about women - you can say he's revealing with his words the construct men have of women, you can say that he's talking about the Christian (ohhh Nietzsche hated dem Christians) ideal of women and not of women themselves. There's lots of interpretations on this.

I would say that the culmination of Xenosaga III - and really, the entire series - is basically TPTB's interpretation of Nietzsche's views on women. KOS-MOS as she is at the end of X3 is the feminine counterpart to the Ubermensch, the ideal that topples Wilhelm's control. I mean, right from square one an emphasis is put on the fact that KOS-MOS is female, that Kevin wanted her to be female because - and I really can't remember this quote precisely, but it's something like he wanted her to be a protector rather that just a destroyer.

Of course this says something about Kevin's idealization of women... but prototype KOS-MOS stabbing him in the gut is the first sign of her rejection of his ideals, and the sign that she'll ultimately choose a role as something of both.

KOS-MOS's various models in the three games are signs of her evolution towards the anti-Ubermensch, the final piece of which is absorbing T-elos, her counterpart and opposite. I'm fairly sure T-elos symbolizes something but I'm not sure what.

Anyway, these are my KOS-MOS-related thoughts, let me show you them. I'm not really sure exactly how to characterize the kind of anti-Ubermensch she's supposed to be... I hesitate to say feminine ideal, because the point is that she breaks down the old feminine ideal and constructs her own (blah blah blah Nietzsche breaking down old morality constructing own values), but that's really what she is. Now if only I could figure out what that ideal is supposed to be.

KOS-MOS' character confuses me. This is why I can't fic her - my reaction is: What?

But moving on: There's something to be said about Xenosaga and master-slave morality. Okay, basically master-slave morality boils down to: everyone is either a master or a slave, masters determine their own morality and slaves' morality is based as the antithesis of that of their masters. Nietzsche defines Christian morality as being slave morality, for example, because it devalues the physical and the material, things that those in power value and have a lot of ($$$).

The Gnosis are the embodiment of slave morality - they fear and reject others and basically exist to counter everything that humans construct. They're non-physical where humans are physical and determine that which humans consider good to be their own idea of evil. More specifically, the Gnosis are rejecting Wilhelm (who is most definitely a Master with a capital M) and the morality he creates with his ever-looping universe plan.

I also think there's something to be said for the Shining Will types (blah diddy blah Gnosticism) and the master morality - part of master-slave morality is the idea that the slave does not want to transcend the master, it wants the master to become a slave also - the slave convinces the master that what the master values as 'good' is in fact 'evil', and this is what the Gnosis do as part of the Gnosification schtick - they induce a fear that drives people to reject humanity as they do. Those with Shining Wills are true masters, those who cannot be turned into slaves.

I was gonna go onto a tangent on Shion's Gnosis-summoning thing as a child and master-slave morality and result vs. intention but I'm really not sure where I'm going with that. So.

Anyway, I guess as a final shot: when it comes to overanalyzing Xenosaga, the one thing that keeps kicking me in the pants is that the games have heavy influences from both Gnosticism and Nietzschean philosophy, but both of those are completely at odds with each other. Gnosticism emphasizes that the real world is an illusion and that we must transcend that to find 'truth', while Nietzsche is all about the physical and emphasizing that the physical IS truth and that there is no facade.

At least both of them agree on the God is dead thing - and while we're at it, U-DO is the Xenosaga God - Gnosticism says that the Christian God is an egomaniac false god (Albedo's relationship with U-DO is pretty much the kicker on this) that we, as individual higher beings need to transcend in order to see our own potential - Nietzsche's famous line God is dead basically says that the idea of God is no longer necessary to one who creates their own values to replace that of God.


...there has to be more rants on the internet about this, seriously, Where Is The Meta.



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/too lazy to switch accounts
[info]shexy_teef
2009-07-02 03:09 am UTC (link)
i haet u

why did you have to remind me of how there is no moar Xenosaga I WAS DOING SO WELL WITH THE BLOCKING THIS WOEFUL TRUTH OUT

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: /too lazy to switch accounts
[info]relmneiko
2009-07-02 05:54 am UTC (link)
Wait wait since when are you rping again?

AHAHAHA SEE SEE

Though technically there is a romhack group that's working on the DS Xenosaga I & II, but God knows how long that's gonna take.

I WANTS IT. I WANTS IT BAD. And that kinda game's way too dialogue-heavy for me to try tackling on my own.

/wrist /wrist Xenosagaaaa but really come on let's talk about meta meta meta

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Re: /too lazy to switch accounts
[info]iceblitz
2009-07-02 05:59 am UTC (link)
i wasn't i was getting into a friendslocked entry at kingdomdressing ffffff orz Feffiroff-muse is pretty much dead :(

But you've played all the games like three times each and i've only played them once each over two years ago i can barely remember wtf even happens :|

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kirschwassers
2009-07-02 11:43 pm UTC (link)
sobsob you just reminded me that i really have to attempt his writing again; i tried back in tenth grade and had so much trouble understanding it-- what you say here really does sound to make sense, though. *___*

it's also interesting that you seem to have...decoded it, if you will, especially considering quite a few of the reviews for the games i've found are all saying something along the lines of "omgggggg look these people are just pulling shit from nietzsche books and not even understanding what they're saying" and i think you kind of probably have it.

le cry. my only ideas on xenosaga are that yuriev is the xenosaga equivalent of the biblical antichrist. ):

(Reply to this)


[info]mercilly
2009-07-03 07:38 pm UTC (link)
...You reminded me why I love Xenosaga so much. GOD I MISS THAT GAME WHY DID IT HAVE TO END.

There's also the theory that Xenosaga's story is meant to be Armageddon. Which, I don't think clashes with your theory, but I think it's part of it as well.

T-Elos, is meant to be The Whore of Babylon.

"3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." Rev 17:3-5
If you look at T-elos' picture, she is mostly adorned in purple, aside from her helmet with is crimson. http://www.xenosaga.ru/xenosaga3/telos.jpg



I also have the theory that The Beast is Dimitri.

Another interesting tidbit:
"He (the beast) also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." Revelation 13:16-18"
Because Dimitri forced all of his children to receive a number on their right hand, it could be said that Dimitri is The Beast.



Then's there the theory that Junior, Albedo, and Nigredo are the three horsemen of the apocalypses. Junior is the Red Horse, Albedo the White (or pale horse), and Nigredo is the black horse.

This could play into what you're saying about how KOS-MOS reacted her fate and defied Wilhelm. Nigredo and Junior did not want to bring strife to the world like they were meant to as tools of war, and therefore defied their fate that Dimitri had given them. Could it also be said that Dimitri desired to be an ubermensch?


Jesus will appear with stars in his hands. (If you look at chaos' gloves in the third game, he has stars on them.) (I can't the biblical listing to this.)

One thing I'm remembering now is the fact that chaos and KOS-MOS are supposed to be opposites? KOS-MOS means Order in Greek, and her name is all capitalized. chaos name is always underscored, and chaos is the opposite of order. chaos also had blue eyes and dark skin, while kos-mos had red eyes and pale skin. I think I had a theory of why they were opposites, but now I forget.

I...I wish you had made this post after I beat the third game. IT WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER. I PROMISE.

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[info]mercilly
2009-07-03 07:44 pm UTC (link)
OH OH OH I FORGOT. There's also the Holy Ghost, (the spirit) Holy Son, and the Holy Father. The Holy Ghost would be Nephiliphm, the Holy Son chaos, and U-DO would the Holy Father.

These are all just theories though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jessioriginal
2009-07-10 02:06 am UTC (link)
That was seriously an amazing read.
It makes you turn your head at how much Xenosaga places two concepts at odds. There is no god, believing in one is weak vs. You must trust your spiritual self and god in order to achieve.

I always thought of Wilhelm as an Anti-Christ figure as well. Revelation says that when the devil returns, (although never particularly calls him anti christ), he will be all powerful- in control of everything- well liked and well trusted, yet enigmatic. Wilhelm fits this to the core, as well as your Ubermensch theory- this is obvious by the subtitle of episode III. BUT I don't think he rejects the spiritual. He knows it's there... he tries to command it, but in the end he ultimately fails.

Anyway Xenosaga is due for stuff like this. Hopefully when I get godsibb.net kicking, there will be tons of great reads like this!

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